To Taste the Food as Arts
—— A Conversation between Zhang Zhaohui and Wu Hung

Wu: I went to the art project you organized last night and was impressed. Tell me first how did you come up with this concept and make the show happen?

Zhang: This project is totally different from that of the politically oriented show Departure from China I curated last year.
It is more relaxed and closer to ordinary life. Based on Beijing's context, I want to find the connection between life and art, bringing the underground experimental art into the public sphere.
Viewers would find that art is not only for entertainment, but also for eating and consuming.

Wu: Had the artists you selected for this show made any reference to food or meals in their previous work?

Zhang: Yes they did. Their art experiments have more or less involved food. For example, Gu Dexing's recent works always use beef as a medium. Sun Yuan and Peng Yu's installations have been composed of such animals as frogs and snakes. Zhang Dali presented his cast-bronze sculpture called Pork in his solo-show at the Courtyard gallery last year. Zhang Nian has been using eggs as his media for the last decade,. Luo Zidan executed a performance called Eating
three hundreds Lichees in a Day. Making art with food by individual artist seems common, but when many vigorous artists are making important works referring to food almost at the same period, it is reasonable to see it as a phenomenon. Why has this happened? I am wondering.

Wu: Now you have already brought up several issues. One is the shift of your own curatorial concerns from a more straightforward political orientation to a complex relationship between art and
daily life, art and its various contexts, art and its audience, the curator and the sponsor, exhibitions and their venues. From your point of view, how and why did this shift take place?

Zhang: Regarding the exhibition venue, currently, Beijing has no formal and stable space for showing experimental art. Although this kind of project takes place occasionally, it appears in the
countryside and the basement of urban buildings. I do not think this is an appropriate strategy for doing new art. I do not want to show work only for the art circle. I have been keeping this in mind,
attempting to seek possibilities of doing exhibitions in such urban public spaces as plazas, shopping-malls, and bars. I went to Club Vogue last fall and was impressed with its space design. Seems to me, it is a right place for hosting an experimental art project. It has different space type and very integrate, including stage, exhibition room, and dining hall. If I could have realized the
proposed Food as Arts project here, it would integrate three sensations impressed with viewers from the space variations. The performances will add another dimension. On the other hand, the
lighting, video and audio equipment are all available.

Wu: It is interesting to see that a curator's thinking about an exhibition is so much intertwined with his consideration of an exhibition space. As far as I know, Beijing has official art venues, commercial galleries, and so-called "underground spaces." Is there a "fourth space" available for exhibiting experimental art publicly?

Zhang: This is also the issue catching my mind. I have ever considered writing an article entitled New Arts and its New Space, examining the possibility of new arts' function in the new social
environment. First of all, numerous huge buildings are booming in China's big cities, such as Beijing, Shanghai, producing many public urban spaces, such as Beijing's Oriental Plaza and Xidan Culture Plaza. This new type of building is for the sake of commercial function and Entertainment, rather political-oriented, say, the Tiananmen Square. Traditional and conventional art piece is no
longer suitable in the new architectural environment. It needs a new kind of art matching with its new space. I thought that, in order to improve the quality of the citizen, the urban designer had already well aware of using contemporary art to decorate it. For example, when Xidan Culture Plaza project was just finished, ten experimental sculptures had been displayed there, including two figurative statures, drawing attentions from the pass-by. Two months later, I found that the eight abstract sculptures have been moved away, remaining the figuratives. I feel so puzzled, who decided to install them there? and who take them away? I thought there was conflicting, and no any response from the mass media. I see this as a good case to stir social debate. From here I want to divert my argument to the deeper layer, namely, the psychological space, a new room emerges from the development of social awareness caused by the transition of Chinese reality. The requirement for high quality and creative art is becoming more and more demanding. Currently, social competition is accelerating, if one wants to be outstanding, he must manage himself creatively and artistically. This is the potential space for the development of new arts.

Wu: I have been in China for more than half a year on this visit. I have constantly heard people using terms like "underground art" (di xia mei shu) or "insiders' exhibitions" (quan nei zhan lan). How do you define these terms in the Chinese context? What is your opinion about this type of exhibition?

Zhang: Since in China, especially in Beijing, it is very difficulty to find institutional space for showcasing new art publicly; meanwhile, artists keep working. When they finish works they thought important, they want to show works urgently to viewer, including in-circle art people and ordinary viewer, to test the society and themselves. Generally, several good friends get together, finding a free space, and rising possible sponsorship for a catalogue. If no money, they would share the expense. The shows organized by independent curator enjoy a better effect. Beyond to see the
original works, viewers want to read the written materials on the exhibits and their authors. These kind of activities usually take place in the basement of an apartment building, or in the countryside, its coordination and execution remains in secret in order to prevent from releasing news and thus be shut down by the security section. Whether successful or not, each participant feel
self-depressed. A problem appears therefore, who is the viewer? How do they confront the society? I think these kind of shows only exist in some sort of "vacuum", concerning this issue, similar point was expressed by Francisca Dolo Go When she reviewed the Chinese art in the Vinece Biannale last year. Namely, Chinese new art exclusively survives within a sort of "cyberspace" manipulated by ideological forces, becoming a weapon for ideology conflict, while, nothing to do with the shifting daily life of ordinary Chinese. I want to do the show focusing on social concerns with an active attitude to involve the social transition.

Wu: China is now in a period of violent transformation. Things change rapidly and it is difficult to immediately see them clearly, especially for those art activities that are under tight control. On
the other hand, if a curator could organize an exhibition in a public space and makes a strong point, it could be very significant and influential.

Zhang: Yes I totally agree with you. Under the current social conditions, whether a cutting-age show can be successfully opened to the public depends upon curator's strategy.

Wu: You use the word " the public" a lot, how do you define the audience who went to your show in Club Vogue? As the curator of the show, do you think that this audience could help you spread the
message you hoped to bring up? You also mentioned "new exhibition spaces" besides a bar. So here is another question: What other spaces could be explored for exhibiting experimental art?

Zhang: Using bar is just a tentative strategy. Club Vogue is relatively special in Beijing's bar business. It has drawn the elite of Beijing's entertainment and fashion community for its very cool
style. I think public viewers can be categorized into different layers. My show is for the higher viewer, through which reach to a wider sphere. Currently, the official art institution does not
accept new art exploration, therefore using public space is an effective approach. On the other hand, unused urban commercial and public space is numerous, and competition is growing. If new art activities could associate with marketing and promotion program, that would be very significant, and I see this as an economic and lucrative fashion for new art to penetrate into the public sphere.
In terms of art promotion, it is an alternative; from the viewpoint of commercial institution, it is a lucrative publicity. This kind of activity took place in Shanghai, such as Art for Sale project last
April. New art need to positively seek support from the society. In the social operation, artistic and creative idea is necessary and popular.

Wu: It seems that Zhao Bandi's Public Poster Project last year in Beijng's subway system was based on the same strategy, that commercial operation and public art are reciprocal. The relationship between art and life is becoming more subtle and complex.

Zhang: This is the reality we are facing with, to confront and challenge it, art will be powerful and find a wider survival room. Actually, there are many informal venues available for new art project, such as commercial gallery, plaza, hotel, market, basement, entertainment center, even countryside and wasted factories. I thought the most ideal venue is those type space where artist and curator's concept can be fully expressed. I also think that the selection of venue is the embodiment of curator's penchant.

Wu: The nature of a place like Club Vogue determines that its customers are mainly seeking fun and entertainment. Does this particular interest contradict the creative intention of an
experimental artist?

Zhang: I thought experimental art should bring about fresh sensation, since intensive information quick life rhythm in mundane life drive people feel depress and apathetic. While, experimental
art functions in part as ventilation outlet for people's spiritual depression. People come to bar just for this reason. To some degree, my show is just for them, let them know that experimental is not as lofty and inaccessible as them expected, rather, closely associates with their life and feelings. On the other hand, the concept of art is opened and developing, anything can be art, and art can be
everywhere, could be presented in any form and fashion. From this point of view, art is the incarnation of creativity and intelligence.

Wu: It seems that you are suggesting that art and its environment should be harmonious and mutual beneficial. But is it also possible that such "harmony" may weaken a kind of creative tension at the heart of experimental art? One of the reasons that the owner of Club Vogue hosted your project may be that he wants to promote the club and to make it a fashionable place with a reputation for artiness. This is entirely understandable. But is there any conflict between this particular desire and the artists' ideas? A bar is a special kind of "public space." There should be many other possible choices for developing projects of experimental art. While a curator should
certainly consider any possible space, he should also be conscious - and cautious - about the nature of a space.

Zhang: I have mentioned curator's space consciousness. In a concrete exhibition space, I thought, harmony and tension should be co-existence. How to deal with their relationship is very crucial
for an exhibition. A successful exhibition should be productive in terms of forging special sensations and environment. The productivity of sensation is brought about by the relationships
between each artwork's location, light, media, quantity, movement, color, and cultural implications. Many interactive elements are merged together. Each work could be accessible for viewer base upon their personal cultivation and sensibility, one can also be well informed by curator's approach to the space. These entirely concern about the curatorial promise. High people can feel the entity, lower viewer can feel the basic. For a successful show, it should touch with viewers' inner world with its tension, not insensitive, regardless who likes it, or who dislikes it. Insightful viewer would
test their sensation and then get improved. A journalist, for example, inquired me whether I had prepared written materials for her reference. I said no. I told her that she should describe and
analyze it completely by her observation, nothing absolutely wrong or absolutely right.

Wu: Your strategy in organizing this project seems quite different from the joint exhibition of Xu Bing and Cai Guoqiang that you curated in New York. To me the New York show aimed to question and challenge an established order in contemporary western art. Your recent project in Club Vogue seems to have more to do with your hope to open up new spaces in China for experimental art. It is also challenging, but of a different sort. Was there any conflict during the show's preparation? I was told that the owner of the club disliked Sun Yuan and Peng Yu's piece. What would happen if such
conflict could not be solved in a satisfactory way for all parties involved?

Zhang: When the show was opened for about one hour, the smell of toasting dog penetrated every corner. Artists and the boss were in a serious tension. Since the boss received many phone calls from his friend, protesting the very rude art project. I did not want this show became another Sensation project in New York, just lubricating each other.

Wu: Let's talk more about a curator's roles and choices. As I see, we can roughly think of three different curatorial strategies or positions. In one case, a curator first forms a clear theme/concept
for a show, and compiles the exhibition catalogue to demonstrate a coherent interpretation of the works selected. In another case, a curator only develops some basic ideas or a general orientation for a show, and gradually realizes the show through working together with the artists. The third case is that a curator tries to avoid any pre-conception. Rather, he consciously lets the artists take
lead, while forming his ideas/interpretations only in responce to the artists' experiments. When you first invited me to join this project two months ago, I thought that this would be a good opportunity for me to "experiment" with this last position. I did get in touch with the artists and listened to them. But generally
speaking I tried not to interfere - to influence them with my own opinions. Thus if we think about our conversation this morning, we actually represent two different positions and perspectives. You are
of course the curator of the show; but I am not entirely a "reviewer" of "critic" because I was also in a certain way involved in the show's conceptualization and execution. This conversation can
thus be thought of as part of the whole project. This is a fresh approach, very interesting.

Zhang: I think the preparation stage of this project is belong to the second category, but right now what we are doing is lined up to the third.

Wu: In this light, can you return to the actual planning of the exhibition? What is your relationship with the artists and the bar owner?

Zhang: Since the later 1999, Beijing has almost no any experimental art activities. Public attention was focusing on the upcoming new millennium and every kind of celebrations. Although from 1999 to 2000 is just the change of time, people has imbued it with significant spiritual implications. In addition to eat and drink for celebrations, I had nothing to do with the special moment. When I
talked with my artist friend this idea, they saw it interesting.
Later I talked with Henry Lee, the boss of Club Vogue. He was enthusiastic with it and would like to host it in his bar. Therefore we determined the timetable. I only want to work with those with which I am familiar, otherwise I cannot take control, another point is that I want to breakdown conventional barriers in the art circles, bringing together artist who are from different areas, in different ages, use different media. I suggested each preparing tow proposals, and talked with ten artists, works can be anything related to eat and food. At last I determined seven works by eight artists.

Wu: How did you select the works? What were your criteria?

Zhang: Huang Yan's work was determined through our frequent discussion on the phone. He had three proposals, the final one was very different from the earlier two. Sun Yuan and Peng Yu, who are the youngest participants, took merely two days to finish the entirely work. When Zhang Nian was doing executing his installation, I still negotiated with him. He finally accepted my idea. Lou
Zhidan's changed a lot, he did not tell me the title until he finished the performance and determined to call it The New Rich Intellectual Is Becoming a Hoodlum. Zhang Dali had had several experiments for his contribution The Head, composed with jellied pork. Gu Dexin is a veteran artist, having been engaged with experimental art since the 1980s. Wang Chunhong is an insightful
dancer. Her presentation resembles a movable sculpture. Working with dancers is my first experiment, seems not bad.

Wu: From my contact with these artists before the exhibition I got to know some of their ideas about how to relate food and life with art. I also became aware of their interests in certain social
problems. Throughout the show, the audience were simultaneously visitors to the bar and consumers of actual wine and food. There is an old Chinese saying "Xiu se ke can" -- "Something whose appearance is so good you want to eat it up." It seems to imply that art is not just for the eyes but also for smell and taste, at least metaphorically. In your show different sensations became interactive and inter-activating. Viewers were enthusiastic. Flickering light and lively music made the place like a carnival. Congratulations for this successful undertaking.

Zhang: Thanks for your comment and cooperation.

Zhang Zhaohui: Director to the Curatorial Section, He Xiangning Art Gallery, Shenzhen, China

Wu Hung: Harrie A. Vanderstappen Distinguished Service Professor in Chinese Art History, Department of Art History, The University of Chicago, USA.

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